Former CIA counterintelligence chief James Olson tells Jeff Stein the CIA and FBI need to “resuscitate” double agent ops to penetrate enemy spy services, and Jeanne Meserve talks with former senior U.S. cybercrime official Chris Painter about dealing with the rash of ransomware attacks by REvil and other Russia-based malefactors.

It’s all in the 13th edition of the SpyTalk podcast. Listen here, or wherever you get your podcasts.